[LUAU] Hello - My Name is Scott

Jim Thompson jim at netgate.com
Thu Mar 27 04:30:13 PDT 2008


On Mar 26, 2008, at 8:43 PM, Angela Kahealani wrote:
> On Wed, 2008-03-26 20:04:08 808blogger wrote:
>> <disclaimer>
>> I run 100% open source
>> I am a parent
>> </disclaimer>
>> Having nothing to do with hosef i'll chime in.
>> the hosef group seems ( by looking at the photo gallery and projects)
>> focuses a lot on hardware for some reason. This was made clear when
>> reference was made about the hosef listserver(the physical machine
>> from what I interpreted). Why the focus on the machines?
>
> I think it's often easier to gift a fully functional computer into the
> community, made from FLOSS and e-waste, than it is to convince an
> existing computer owner to risk their own hardware on that radical
> FLOSS stuff. Once they see how well it works, they become converted,
> and more willing to convert more of their computers to FLOSS.

This is opinion, not fact.

> Nobody is interested in software.

I and others are.
>
> Nobody is interested in hardware.

I and others are.

> Everyone wants practical solutions to problems,

'Everyone'?  No.

Yes, in the view that "computers are tools used to effect solutions",  
most want practical ones.

This view is nowhere near universal, however.  Linus Torvalds, for  
example has said that, "the computer itself is entertainment," meaning  
that the hacker programs because he finds programming intrinsically  
interesting, exciting and joyous.   The spirit behind many other  
hackers' creations is very similar to this.  Torvalds is not alone in  
describing his work with statements such as, "Linux hackers do  
something because they find it to be very interesting."  For example,  
Vinton Cerf, sometimes called "the father of the Internet", comments  
on the fascination programming exerts:  "There was something amazingly  
enticing about programming".   Seve Wozniak, the person who built the  
first real personal computer, says forthrightly about his discovery of  
the wonders of programming:  "It was just the most intriguing world."

This is a general spirt, hackers program because programming  
challenges are of intrinsic interest to them.  Problems related to  
programming arouse genuine curiosity in the hacker and make him eager  
to learn more.   The hacker is also enthusiastic about this  
interesting thing; it energizes him.  From MIT in the sixties until  
now, the classic hacker has emerged from sleep in the early afternoon  
to start programming with enthusiasm and has continued his efforts,  
deeply immersed in coding into the wee hours of the morning.

The term "hacker" here is near an exact equivalent of "mathematician"  
and several other kinds of people, who have "worked" as a network for  
the fun and glory of achieving something very difficult.  A good  
example is the then sixteen-year-old Irish hacker Sara Flannery who  
described her work on the Cayley-Purser encryption algorithm: "I had a  
great feeling of excitement .... I worked constantly for whole days on  
end, and it was exhilarating.  There were times when I never wanted to  
stop."

Linus has described how Linux began to expand from small experiments  
with the computer he had just acquired.  In the same messages, he  
explained his motivation for developing Linux by simply stating that,  
"It was/is fun working on it."   Tim Berners-Lee also describes how  
the "web" began with experiments in linking what he termed "play  
programs".   Wozniak related how most characteristics of the first  
Apple computer, "came from a game, and the fun features that were  
built in were only to do one pet project, which was to program... [a  
game called] Breakout and show it off at the clubs."

Moreover, in the center of hacker ethic is information sharing. It is  
held as a duty to share interesting information with like-minded  
people. In some sense the hacker ethic is a counterforce to the market  
culture. Hackers enter into information creation and exchange  
motivated by enthusiasm, joy and passion, not just money. Working  
times of a hacker are individual and optimized. In overall,  
hierarchies and rules from above are not driving creative individuals  
in the information centric fields of our society.  To quote Woz:  
"H=F^3". which is tranlates as  "Happiness equals food, fun and  
friends".

Play also extends beyond the hacker community and touches upon all the  
other "arts of living" that evade the patriarchal work ethic - in  
emotions, parent-child relationships, New Age spirituality, gender  
androgyny, ecological sensibilities, etc.

There is also a whole world of non-Christian theologies and traditions  
which place human creativity at their core which I could mention, such  
as Harold Bloom's cry for an American gnosticism in "Omens of  
Millenium".  That's just waiting for Richard Stallman and his cultic  
robes.

Though I have many disagreements with ESR, I do like this quote from  
"The Art of Unix Programming":
---
"To do the Unix philosophy right, you have to be loyal to excellence.  
You have to believe that software design is a craft worth all the  
intelligence, creativity, and passion you can muster.

Software design and implementation should be a joyous art, a kind of  
high-level play. If this attitude seems preposterous or vaguely  
embarrassing to you, stop and think; ask yourself what you've  
forgotten. Why do you design software instead of doing something else  
to make money or pass the time? You must have thought software was  
worthy of your passion once....
To do the Unix philosophy right, you need to have (or recover) that  
attitude.  You need to care. You need to play. You need to be willing  
to explore."
---

> and that often requires a functional combination
> of hardware and software, so it only makes sense,
> to go solve a problem with a packaged deal..

Stated earlier, but I'll repeat...

Its very difficult to scale a hardware operation without sufficient  
capital.

Sharing ideas (including ideas embodied in software) is scalable.

> and how sweet it is if that packaged solution costs $0,
> and also reduces the size of Hawai'i's landfills.

It doesn't "cost $0", thats a large part of the issue.

Another issue is that Scott has made many statements of late about  
"focusing on my [his] charity" in reference to HOSEF.  Its not "his",  
and it can't be for it to remain a 501(c)3.  Most of the issue that  
has caused all this turmoil is that Scott is all too willing to behave  
as though he is all that is HOSEF, and the rest of us are merely props  
for him to move about the board.

> Scott has been providing these solutions where they were needed most,
> where the $ simply weren't there for the alternatives, so, yeah,
> he's been majorly focussed on the Free (as in beer) FLOSS,
> and less on the Free (as in freedom) aspect of FLOSS,
> so be careful what you ask for, as this sovereign minded freedom
> advocate has been very politely staying *on* *topic* in this forum,
> rather than ranting about the FREE DOMINION aspect of FLOSS, but,
> if you really wanna go there, I'm game.
> Either GPL3 or GPL2 just beats the kukai outta the alternatives  
> offered
> by Steve MacJobs or Bill "Monopoly" Gates.

Scott, I and many others on this list actually use Mac hardware  
running MacOS.  I booted linux on mine just last night in order to  
image a USB drive to reload my little EEE PC with the most recent  
Xubutu. The combination works really well, I might add.

Microsoft seems to have stepped on their own d**k with Vista and their  
announcement that all support for XP will be discontinued in 2014.    
What they've given people to "upgrade to" has been universally panned  
as (to use a polite term), "garbage".   With Gates' departure in July,  
Microsoft will be headed by Ballmer (a thuggish bully by all accounts)  
and the combination of Ray Ozzie (chief software architect) and Craig  
Mundie (chief research and strategy officer).   The combination are  
unlikely to function as a team, and Microsoft will likely be even  
further in the mud.


>
>> Hosef also seems to focus a lot on children. This is very commendable
>> but does very little for the long term effective goal of open source
>> advocacy.
>
> Actually, it is a long term strategy, the same one played by MacApple
> and by Microshaft, who've for many years offered steep discounts for
> school installations, in order to try to brainwash the next generation
> into learning computers on their particular flavor, with the hope
> they'd grow up to be consumers and corporate influencers who bought
> what they learned on. So, HOSEF actually is doing a long term  
> modality,
> and maybe what you really want to see is something more focused on the
> short term.

Its not even working in the long term.  HOSEF has lost many of the  
"school labs" it installed.

>> Hosef also seems to have a business allergy. Hosef should
>> be educating businesses how to leverage open source software to their
>> benefit and bottom line. When business start become useres and
>> understanders of open source the result will be more open source at
>> home and at schools.
>
> We might say that for the mere investment of a measly $50 per year or
> so, that businesses can subscribe to both Linux Magazine and Linux
> Journal, and become educated on Linux use in business. I haven't seen
> much in either magazine other than one brief mention of K12LTSP, that
> seriously supported schools and keiki.

you're wrong.

http://www.linux-mag.com/id/972
full text here: <http://www.win2lin.biz/pdf/Open%20Schools%20to%20Open%20Source.pdf 
 >
http://www.linuxjournal.com/article/6349
http://www.linuxjournal.com/article/8309
http://www.linuxjournal.com/article/7148

I could continue, but you're able to use Google yourself.

> It's harder to get "cheaper" than FREE (as in beer).

On one hand, its not about the money.

Conversely for large institutions, the licensing costs are trivial  
compared to operating costs.

>
> You can't possibly "cheapen" the FLOSS community, it's already $0.

See (far) above.

>
> What might be useful is to emphasize the FREEdom aspect of it.
> Steve MacJobs and Bill Monopoly Gates haven't learned how to maintain
> committed relationships, they always break it off after 3 years,
> whereas FLOSS will actually keep your hardware running until it dies,

As long as you don't use the "--force" flag to rpm, I guess.  :-)

> Kids and underfunded schools simply have more open minds,

it has yet to be shown that access to computers improves young minds.

On the other hand, access to music programs, leaning to garden, being  
outdoors, learning to play well with others, etc... does.

> than old farts who are already habituated into things like MicroShaft.

The really old "farts" don't run Windows.  Its a younger generation  
who sucks on the tailpipe of Redmond.

>> Helping people make money with oss != evil
>
> ...and the history of Red Hat and Fedora
> which is an excellent example of FLOSS for profit,

Ubuntu is an even more excellent example, as are the many, many  
companies who use linux and BSD as an embedded OS in their hardware.

> owes a boatload of thanks to Scott Belford, and UH
> (sorry, I forgot the name of the guy at UH who,
> together with Scott, launched Fedora Core).

Warren  Togami?

Scott moved to Hawaii in 2000, and graduated with an MBA from UH in  
2003.  <http://www.repscott.org/about?PHPSESSID=9199723e968202fc9d49e778a2eed9d5 
 >
Fedora Core 1 was the first version of Fedora and was released on  
November 6, 2003.

Are you perhaps confused by this photo: <http://gallery.hosef.org/main.php/v/exhibitions/tposscon2006/belford.JPG.html 
 >

The history as I understand it:

July 2002: Warren asks about forming a non-profit (for MPLUG) http://lists.hosef.org/pipermail/luau/2002-July/009520.html
July 2002: Scott responds:http://lists.hosef.org/pipermail/luau/ 2002- 
July/009532.html
Oct 2002: Scott proposes a non-profit http://lists.hosef.org/  
pipermail/luau/2002-October/010901.html
Oct 2002: Warren proposes the name (for the second time) http://  
lists.hosef.org/pipermail/luau/2002-October/010989.html
Jan 2003: HOSEF is incorporated as a 501(c)(3), Warren is chair for  
the first two months http://lists.hosef.org/pipermail/luau/2003-January/012129.html
early 2004:
Scott Belford "Founder/Chair/Treasurer" http://lists.hosef.org/pipermail/hosef-announce/2004q1/000029.html
Scott Belford is PR Director http://lists.hosef.org/ pipermail/hosef- 
announce/2004q1/000030.html

Aug 2004: HOSEF re-organized to have "directors at large" http://  
lists.hosef.org/pipermail/hosef-announce/2004q3/000032.html

While Warren and Scott were quite active in launching HOSEF, I'm not  
sure that Scott had all that much to do with launching Fedora Core,  
and I'm all but certain that he didn't "co-launch" it with Warren.
However, Warren is on-list and can clarify if Scott co-launched Fedora  
Core with him.   See also: <http://www.linux.com/articles/31767>

I can't find any mention of "belford" on fedoracore.org or  
fedoraproject.org.

I'm being pedantic here because statements like yours "[Warren]  
together with Scott, launched Fedora Core", get translated to fact.

>> Just my 2 cents worth..
>
> probably worth more than 2 cents even if only due to inflation,

though inflation typically raises the price, rather than the value of  
things.

> I would encourage the board to make peace with Scott. Yeah,
> I know that Pluto opposing Mars makes for a war-like "vibe", but,
> it's time to put the community ahead of personal issues.

Please see my previous message(s).

jim




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