[LUAU] Top 10 Best / Worst Cities For Software Developer Pay

Fri Mar 23 20:56:48 PDT 2007

Jim,

I think it's a perpetual chicken and egg thing. More companies would 
consider moving here if the talent pool existed and more software engineers 
would stimulate more growth of software companies.

There are rich people here but it needs to be rich people that are 
interested in investing in tech companies. Most of our riches are invested 
in Real Estate. There is not very much venture capital here.

Holy Crap Batman! Did Jim just agree with me?

MD
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Jim Thompson" <jim at netgate.com>
To: "LUAU" <luau at lists.hosef.org>
Sent: Friday, March 23, 2007 12:46 PM
Subject: Re: [LUAU] Top 10 Best / Worst Cities For Software Developer Pay

>
> On Mar 23, 2007, at 6:09 AM, Maddog wrote:
>
>> I think it's more of a supply and demand proposition. There are not  a 
>> lot of software development companies here and worker demand is  low, 
>> therefore employers can pay whatever workers will accept and  workers 
>> have to accept what is offered or not work.
>
> Why would a bright, motivated college grad go to work for someone else?
>
> What we need are more startups in Hawaii.
>
> http://www.paulgraham.com/siliconvalley.html
>
> Quoting:  I think you only need two kinds of people to create a 
> technology hub: rich people and nerds. They're the limiting reagents  in 
> the reaction that produces startups, because they're the only ones 
> present when startups get started. Everyone else will move.
>
> We have a plethora of rich people here.   What we need are more  "nerds". 
> If Hawaii could get off its ass and educate more people  with programming 
> skills, in a generation we would have a lot more  startups.
>
> So yes MD, I agree, the solution is "more software companies", but  I'm 
> not sure that getting existing software companies to "move here"  is the 
> right move.
>
> Jim
>
>> In some sectors there is a high demand, such as network engineers.  There 
>> are several network integrators that have had to hire workers  from out 
>> of state. Higher demand means better wages and employees  have the upper 
>> hand and can demand more money. The employer has to  accept the higher 
>> salary demand unless he wants to take his chances  and look outside the 
>> state to find someone for less (unlikely).
>>
>> So if Lingle was to "do something" about the situation, it would be  to 
>> encourage more software development companies to move here,  i.e., tax 
>> breaks. That would increase demand and competition for  better workers 
>> and would increase salaries.
>>
>> MD
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: "Jim Thompson" <jim at netgate.com>
>> To: "LUAU" <luau at lists.hosef.org>
>> Sent: Tuesday, March 20, 2007 9:39 AM
>> Subject: Re: [LUAU] Top 10 Best / Worst Cities For Software  Developer 
>> Pay
>>
>>
>>>
>>> On Mar 20, 2007, at 7:42 AM, Eric Hattemer wrote:
>>>
>>>> Jim Thompson wrote:
>>>>>    Where are the "exports" for Hawaii?
>>>>>
>>>> I think this is the key question.  You can't pay people with  money 
>>>> you don't have.  It's not so much about how much are  "they" paying  as 
>>>> "who is there that can actually pay?"  I think  the only way to  solve 
>>>> this problem would be to get more  companies with more cash- earning 
>>>> products to Hawaii.  It's not  direct, but there's  definitely a small 
>>>> correlation between  corporate earnings and  employee salaries.  How 
>>>> many giant  (Microsoft, Adobe, IBM, Apple,  etc.) software/computer 
>>>> companies  have offices in Hawaii?  The only  one I can think of is 
>>>> IBM.
>>>> -Eric Hattemer
>>>
>>> Sun has one.  I don't know the current status, but they're still  in 
>>> the phone book.   It could be an 'e-suite' for a salesperson  and 
>>> perhaps an SE.   That said, IBM is unlikely to be doing  development 
>>> here, either.
>>>
>>> The biggest problem with Hawaii is logistics.   While its no more 
>>> expensive to FedEx from here than from many locations on the   mainland, 
>>> its impossible to ship "overnight" from here.  You  could  setup to do 
>>> most everything over the Internet, but there is  a huge  lack of local 
>>> infrastructure in terms of co-location,  etc.  Having  "lava.net" host 
>>> my servers just isn't going to cut it.
>>>
>>> And then there is the simple fact that we're currently 6 hours out  of 
>>> 'sync' with the East Coast, and even California is 3 hours  away.   If 
>>> you think that doesn't matter, consider the 'window of  opportunity'  to 
>>> speak with customers, suppliers, fellow  employees, etc on the East 
>>> Coast.
>>>
>>> By the time you're sitting at your desk, with the second cup of   coffee 
>>> consumed, its 8am (haha!) here, and 2pm on the East  Coast.    They 
>>> won't want to schedule conf calls past 4pm their  time, so there  is a 
>>> mere 2 hours of "overlap" per day.   Of  course, if you're  willing to 
>>> stay up past 2am, then you can catch  them mid-doughnut,  explain the 
>>> issue du jour, and perhaps have a  solution by their COB.
>>>
>>> There is also the none-too-subtle suspicion on their part that  you 
>>> spend every spare moment on the beach, ogling the gender of  your 
>>> choice, or surfing, that you have achieved a state of  "permanent 
>>> vacation", and they are none-too-happy that your off- hours are spent 
>>> in in a tiki-lit paradise while they return home  to either sub-urban 
>>> blandness or urban blight.
>>>
>>> After that, you're faced with a workforce that (in the large)  isn't 
>>> technology savvy, (the Microsoft-touting sheeple are as  thick here as 
>>> anywhere), and can't even find the motivation to  return to work 
>>> reliably. ("Sorry I fo'got to call eh...but chu  know I always got 
>>> choke aloha foa ya brah!")
>>>
>>> All that said, I don't think its impossible to 'do' high-tech  here, 
>>> but its very difficult to 'scale' it.
>>>
>>> Jim
>>>
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>>
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