[LUAU] s/hosef.ics.hawaii.edu/mirrors.hosef.org/g

[Jim Thompson]

On Dec 18, 2006, at 11:19 PM, Jimen Ching wrote:

> On Sun, 17 Dec 2006, R. Scott Belford wrote:
>> The person you are referring to is a lifelong resident of this  
>> beautiful island, and I think it is reasonable to be surprised  
>> that a mailing list about FOSS could become so childishly petty.
>
> I'm still not exactly sure what the issues are.  But this thread is  
> about the definition of LUAU, so I'll assume your comment applies  
> to this thread.  If your comment doesn't apply, then please ignore.

Attempting to define LUAU is like trying to hold water in your fist.

> I've cared about the direction of the LUAU mailing list for a long  
> time. I'm sure the archives will show that I've voiced my opinions  
> on the matter on many occasions.  If that proves me to be childish  
> and petty, then so be it.

And what action(s) have you taken?

>> This is quite different than transit, education, or other issues  
>> that are neither free, voluntary, nor inherently cooperative.
>
> As you mentioned in your email below, running a mailing list isn't  
> free either.  And from your tone (and I admit I might have  
> misinterpreted), it wasn't very voluntary or cooperative.  What I  
> mean by that is; it seems you were forced into supporting the  
> mailing list out-of-pocket.  I didn't realize the depth of this  
> commitment.

I'm sure Scott was glad to do it, too.

> But if I've interpreted your email correctly, then there does seem  
> to be a lot of similarity between FOSS and these other  
> communities.  I've been around FOSS long enough to know that it  
> suffers from the same problems as anything else.  I only need to  
> point to Debian to prove my point. Though, that may or may not be  
> fair to FOSS or Debian.
>
>> How is it that this list is managed and sustained?  The charitable  
>> entity called HOSEF was created and named on this mailing list.  
>> Everyone was invited and encouraged to participate.  After its  
>> creation HOSEF adopted LUAU, with the blessing of its former  
>> manager, and aside from the occasional bruised ego it has been a  
>> very good relationship.
>
> I remember an email from you at the beginning of this effort that  
> says something to the effect--LUAU will remain a mailing list about  
> general Linux and free/open source software.  I didn't realize that  
> LUAU would become a tool of/for HOSEF.  I don't know if this is  
> what you are implying when you said HOSEF adopted LUAU.  Is this  
> what the former managers blessed?

Nothing Scott said has to be interpreted as making LUAU a tool of/for  
HOSEF.   This is your interpretation.

Scott may have been saying that LUAU will continue as it is/was, (a  
mailing lit about general Linux and free/open source software.

If you review the history carefully, the "former managers" had  
checked out.

> If this is what the HOSEF organization is trying to do from the  
> beginning, I would have done something more to keep LUAU independent.

LUAU is independent.
LUAU is also essentially the same people who are involved with  
HOSEF.  At the least, the intersection of the two sets is quite large.

>> The people who feel strongest about the independence of LUAU have  
>> done nothing to preserve it.  No one stepped up to provide  
>> hardware or support for this list when it was asked for many, many  
>> years ago.  Until a few hard drives were funded one day at  
>> McKinley, the entire dual athlon 4U server currently at UH was  
>> from my pocket.  Instead of gratitude or appreciation there has  
>> been resentment.
>
> I thought you stepped up to support LUAU.  And by support, I mean  
> to just host the mailing list.  I guess you're now saying you were  
> forced into it? I didn't realize this situation existed.  If to  
> keep LUAU independent requires that I put my money where my mouth  
> is, I am ready to purchase these equipments.  Let's meet to discuss  
> this further.  Can I attend your next HOSEF board meeting?  When is  
> that?

Yes, you can attend the next HOSEF board meeting.   Its tomorrow night.

Do you want to suggest an agenda item, or were you coming to listen?

As I've stated before:

You are free to 'fork' the list, and always have been.
You are free to copy the archives of the list, and always have been
You are free to post messages to the LUAU list and tell the assembled  
there that you have a different list (you can even name it LUAU,  
though its obviously not going to be <luau at lists.hosef.org>.  Those  
you invite are free to join in.

You have always been free to do these things, but there is a reason  
you have not.

You may wish to explore same.

>
>> Thanks to a whole host of folks, namely Ed Orcutt, LUAU was born.  
>> Thanks to Warren Togami, LUAU was revived.  Thanks to Brian Chee's  
>> willingness to host us and Vince Hoang's willingness to  
>> administrate us, LUAU exists.  A history of sorts is here
>>
>> http://www.hosef.org/wiki/LUAU_history
>
> Yes, and I hope LUAU stays open to many organizations, whether  
> HOSEF or others.  But from this thread, I don't get that  
> confortable feeling.  This is from someone who was there when  
> Warren tried to turn LUAU into MPLUG. I see this episode as just  
> another incarnation of that attempt.

In my next message, I will post on the topic of Beer Nuts, or perhaps  
ask about DSLR recommendations.   I am free to do so, of course, but  
its anti-social.  LUAU
is a list about linux, open source and free software in Hawaii.

>
>> Correct.  HOSEF does not "own" LUAU.  HOSEF is the entity that has  
>> managed and sustained LUAU.  Jim is correct that HOSEF=LUAU, and  
>> you are correct that LUAU is not owned by HOSEF.  LUAU does not  
>> magically exist, though, and there is real work and sacrifice  
>> behind this thing so many take for granted.
>
> I'm getting mixed messages here.  I hope that LUAU is open to all  
> non-profit organizations.  I hope that a year from now, if someone  
> wants to say MYNONPROFIT=LUAU, that is just as valid.

LUAU is open to all who want to stay on topic and participate in the  
assembled community.

> But, I think it would be better if people understood that LUAU is  
> not tied to any one organization, but instead, is a community of  
> all free and open source groups/projects/organizations.  Everyone  
> is free to associate themselves to LUAU.  But LUAU should remain  
> independent of them all.  I think the members of LUAU would  
> appreciate that.  I know when I joined LUAU, I joined LUAU, not HOSEF.

You limit yourself unnecessarily.  Why?

>> Interesting.  Your volunteer time to help Julian and Vince  
>> administrate LUAU is always welcome.  Your time to install the  
>> soon-to-be donated hard drives would be appreciated.  No  
>> individual has the ability to dump LUAU.
>
> I'm specifically concerned about LUAU the mailing list, not HOSEF  
> in general.

Did Scott say anything about HOSEF?   No.   He said, "Your volunteer  
time to help Julian and Vince administrate LUAU is always welcome.  
"   You responded with a red herring.  Why?

>   If I understand the hard drive thread, that's about mirroring of  
> distributions.  I do not believe LUAU as a mailing list will be  
> significantly impacted by this.  But if it is, I'm willing to  
> purchase the necessary equipment to make it independent.

Does the local mirroring of distributions not help those who are  
interested in the topics appropriate for LUAU?

>
>> What else is there if not passion?  How about civility and respect.
>
> I've been a member of LUAU long before HOSEF.

This doesn't mean you are being civil or respectful.

> And now I'm being told that since I don't provide the time and  
> money to maintain it, I don't have a say in the direction of LUAU.

You've been told no such thing, of course.

> It's hard to be civil to an organization that treats the members of  
> a mailing list that it doesn't own as petty children.  Or be  
> respectful to that organization for trying to take over something  
> that used to be open to all, including other organizations.

its always been open to all who want to stay on topic.

No "organization" posts here.  We are all individuals, and I doubt  
that many, indeed if any of us think we represent an organization  
when we post here.

> But you're right.  If I'm not willing to put my money where my  
> mouth is, then I should just shut up.  I hope HOSEF and I can  
> resolve this server ownership issue and give LUAU back to it's  
> independent community.

See above

> I'll make a solemn promise to the LUAU members now--I promise once  
> the ownership of the server, that the mailing list resides on, is  
> free, that the list and the machine will be owned by the community  
> as a whole and not me personally.  This way, no one can try to  
> redefine it again.  The machine will still need volunteers to  
> maintain it.  I hope Vince will continue that duty.  But if not,  
> I'll volunteer until someone else wishes to take over.

I don't see you taking any positive steps.

jim