[LUAU] s/hosef.ics.hawaii.edu/mirrors.hosef.org/g

[Jimen Ching]

On Sun, 17 Dec 2006, R. Scott Belford wrote:
> The person you are referring to is a lifelong resident of this beautiful 
> island, and I think it is reasonable to be surprised that a mailing list about 
> FOSS could become so childishly petty.

I'm still not exactly sure what the issues are.  But this thread is about 
the definition of LUAU, so I'll assume your comment applies to this 
thread.  If your comment doesn't apply, then please ignore.

I've cared about the direction of the LUAU mailing list for a long time. 
I'm sure the archives will show that I've voiced my opinions on the matter 
on many occasions.  If that proves me to be childish and petty, then so be 
it.

> This is quite different than transit, 
> education, or other issues that are neither free, voluntary, nor inherently 
> cooperative.

As you mentioned in your email below, running a mailing list isn't free 
either.  And from your tone (and I admit I might have misinterpreted), it 
wasn't very voluntary or cooperative.  What I mean by that is; it seems 
you were forced into supporting the mailing list out-of-pocket.  I didn't 
realize the depth of this commitment.

But if I've interpreted your email correctly, then there does seem to be a 
lot of similarity between FOSS and these other communities.  I've been 
around FOSS long enough to know that it suffers from the same problems as 
anything else.  I only need to point to Debian to prove my point. 
Though, that may or may not be fair to FOSS or Debian.

> How is it that this list is managed and sustained?  The charitable entity 
> called HOSEF was created and named on this mailing list. Everyone was invited 
> and encouraged to participate.  After its creation HOSEF adopted LUAU, with 
> the blessing of its former manager, and aside from the occasional bruised ego 
> it has been a very good relationship.

I remember an email from you at the beginning of this effort that says 
something to the effect--LUAU will remain a mailing list about general 
Linux and free/open source software.  I didn't realize that LUAU would 
become a tool of/for HOSEF.  I don't know if this is what you are implying 
when you said HOSEF adopted LUAU.  Is this what the former managers 
blessed?

If this is what the HOSEF organization is trying to do from the beginning, 
I would have done something more to keep LUAU independent.

> The people who feel strongest about the independence of LUAU have done nothing 
> to preserve it.  No one stepped up to provide hardware or support for this 
> list when it was asked for many, many years ago.  Until a few hard drives were 
> funded one day at McKinley, the entire dual athlon 4U server currently at UH 
> was from my pocket.  Instead of gratitude or appreciation there has been 
> resentment.

I thought you stepped up to support LUAU.  And by support, I mean to just 
host the mailing list.  I guess you're now saying you were forced into it? 
I didn't realize this situation existed.  If to keep LUAU independent 
requires that I put my money where my mouth is, I am ready to purchase 
these equipments.  Let's meet to discuss this further.  Can I attend your 
next HOSEF board meeting?  When is that?

> Thanks to a whole host of folks, namely Ed Orcutt, LUAU was born. Thanks to 
> Warren Togami, LUAU was revived.  Thanks to Brian Chee's willingness to host 
> us and Vince Hoang's willingness to administrate us, LUAU exists.  A history 
> of sorts is here
>
> http://www.hosef.org/wiki/LUAU_history

Yes, and I hope LUAU stays open to many organizations, whether HOSEF or 
others.  But from this thread, I don't get that confortable feeling.  This 
is from someone who was there when Warren tried to turn LUAU into MPLUG. 
I see this episode as just another incarnation of that attempt.

> Correct.  HOSEF does not "own" LUAU.  HOSEF is the entity that has managed and 
> sustained LUAU.  Jim is correct that HOSEF=LUAU, and you are correct that LUAU 
> is not owned by HOSEF.  LUAU does not magically exist, though, and there is 
> real work and sacrifice behind this thing so many take for granted.

I'm getting mixed messages here.  I hope that LUAU is open to all 
non-profit organizations.  I hope that a year from now, if someone wants 
to say MYNONPROFIT=LUAU, that is just as valid.

But, I think it would be better if people understood that LUAU is not tied 
to any one organization, but instead, is a community of all free and open 
source groups/projects/organizations.  Everyone is free to associate 
themselves to LUAU.  But LUAU should remain independent of them all.  I 
think the members of LUAU would appreciate that.  I know when I joined 
LUAU, I joined LUAU, not HOSEF.

> Interesting.  Your volunteer time to help Julian and Vince administrate LUAU 
> is always welcome.  Your time to install the soon-to-be donated hard drives 
> would be appreciated.  No individual has the ability to dump LUAU.

I'm specifically concerned about LUAU the mailing list, not HOSEF in 
general.  If I understand the hard drive thread, that's about mirroring of 
distributions.  I do not believe LUAU as a mailing list will be 
significantly impacted by this.  But if it is, I'm willing to purchase the 
necessary equipment to make it independent.

> What else is there if not passion?  How about civility and respect.

I've been a member of LUAU long before HOSEF.  And now I'm being told that 
since I don't provide the time and money to maintain it, I don't have a 
say in the direction of LUAU.  It's hard to be civil to an organization 
that treats the members of a mailing list that it doesn't own as petty 
children.  Or be respectful to that organization for trying to take over 
something that used to be open to all, including other organizations.

But you're right.  If I'm not willing to put my money where my mouth is, 
then I should just shut up.  I hope HOSEF and I can resolve this server 
ownership issue and give LUAU back to it's independent community.  I'll 
make a solemn promise to the LUAU members now--I promise once the 
ownership of the server, that the mailing list resides on, is free, that 
the list and the machine will be owned by the community as a whole and not 
me personally.  This way, no one can try to redefine it again.  The 
machine will still need volunteers to maintain it.  I hope Vince will 
continue that duty.  But if not, I'll volunteer until someone else wishes 
to take over.

--jc
-- 
Jimen Ching (WH6BRR)      jching at flex.com     wh6brr at uhm.ampr.org