[luau] ics412: operating systems

Mon Sep 30 07:57:00 PDT 2002

Well, I can't say that I have any particular beef with Professor Gilbert 
's attitude towards Linux.  I haven't heard him make any negative 
remarks about Linux to date, except for this recent statement that he's 
thinking (going to?) partially (completely?) switch the course back to 
the emulator because Linux programming seems to hard for the students, 
who I guess only have one sophomore level course in C programming?

Just from taking his course, I wouldn't know that he's a pro-uSoft guy, 
he doesn't (or should say "I haven't heard him") make any remarks about 
it in either direction.  He has said that he's not overly familiar with 
Linux, and is relying on his TA's a lot.  The course is on operating 
systems, and they're using Linux as a teaching tool.  It just seems like 
it's just such an ideal tool for the purpose of the class, it's 
frustrating to imagine taking two steps back.

Uhm, don't know how anybody will take this, but I've often wondered if 
the geography of UH is part of the problem.  UH is definitely an 
"off-campus" school, as compared to most other college/universities that 
I know of.  Most of the students *seem * (I have no factual basis for 
this, just from meeting people I've gotten this impression) to be from 
Oahu, and at the end of the "school day" they go home or do other 
things.  At other U's, you have a majority of students who aren't from 
the surrounding area, and are basically stuck on campus.  This tends to 
breed a more academic culture made up of kids who get into their field 
of study a lot more, particularly in the comp-sci/EE area, where they 
experiment and play around with stuff a lot.   Just my take on it though.

-Charles

Warren Togami wrote:

>----- Original Message -----
>From: "Charles Lockhart" <lockhart at jeans.ifa.hawaii.edu>
>To: "luau" <luau at videl.ics.hawaii.edu>
>Sent: Sunday, September 29, 2002 8:45 PM
>Subject: [luau] ics412: operating systems
>
>
>
>  
>
>>From
>>reading his email to the class it looks like the problems (excuses?)
>>people had were that they weren't good enough C programmers, Linux isn't
>>documented well enough, and os stuff is hard.  All of these answers kind
>>of blow me away.
>>    
>>
>
>I've been watching the planning of this course from summertime.  I offered
>my services before the semester to begin to prepare people in the class to
>further understand the operating system, but only one person from 412 showed
>up to my events.  After the semester began I became too busy to help.
>
>Since then I've been talking the teaching assitant Sang periodically about
>the progress of the class.  Earlier in the semester he and professor Gilbert
>seemed unwilling to accept any advice in how to give organize better
>resources and some tools that I began to show to them.  This past week they
>finally asked me about User Mode Linux as possibly a way of making kernel
>hacking quicker, but it seems like too little too late.  They had mentioned
>last week that they have found Linux to be "too hard" and they possibly will
>move back to their OS simulator next semester.
>
>I was skeptical from the moment I heard about this class because Gilbert
>himself is known to be an ardent Microsoft supporter.  Several of the older
>ICS students warned me about him and things that he has said in past classes
>putting down Linux.  I found it extremely ironic that he would be teaching a
>class that hacks the Linux kernel.  He lectures only the theory, leaving
>overworked Sang who only barely began on Linux himself last semester to
>explain things to the students.  I almost think he doesn't care if Linux
>fails in this class.
>
>To be fair he isn't being paid for lecturing this semester of 412.  Not
>exactly sure why, I suppose out of the kindness of his heart.  I also hear
>he's a brilliant computer scientist.
>
>IMHO, it isn't that Linux is too hard... they just put almost zero effort
>into giving resources to the students in getting them acclimated.  Almost
>zero of those students have signed up on LUAU or asked me for any advice.
>Of course there will always be dropouts among a high level ICS class like
>this, but this class ISN'T REQUIRED for graduation in the BA and BS degrees
>(according to the teaching assistant, I need to check on that.)  For the
>people who are serious about learning computer science, they better learn C
>well and understand these concepts of a real operating system.  I haven't
>seen it myself, but they themselves have described the OS simulator of
>previous semesters to be not a real experience.
>
>If the department decides to move away from an Open Source kernel back to a
>simulator, I will be very disappointed.  I didn't have a chance of taking
>this class yet.  I don't appreciate lowering standards just to allow people
>to pass.  This isn't doing the students a favor.  They do not get a real
>learning experience.
>
>If our ICS students don't understand C well, then it is the fault of the
>department for not focusing enough on C and systems concepts in earlier
>classes.  I know several of the professors agree with this assertion, but
>nothing appears to be happening in the department to remedy this.
>
>Yes, "Linux is too hard" and "C is too hard" are just excuses.  They didn't
>do enough to prepare the students to understand Linux, and the overall
>department curriculum doesn't give them enough C experience.  Otherwise many
>others dropped out (I know some of them) only because of the laziness.
>
>(If they do decide to drop Linux, I only hope they don't move to the
>Microsoft kernel instead of the OS simulator.  Microsoft now allows
>Universities to study their source code under the Shared Source license,
>which means "look but don't touch."  While this sounds nice, this would be a
>SERIOUS PROBLEM for me because I would be legally poisoned, unable to
>contribute code to similar Open Source projects like Linux kernel.  If a
>class at UH ever requires me to read Shared Source code, I will sue the
>University and perhaps transfer away.)
>
>  
>
>>This is a senior level computer science course, and none
>>of the C programming for the projects is very difficult.  Shouldn't
>>comp-sci grads be able to program?
>>
>>    
>>
>
>If students can't handle the difficulty level, lower the standards! =)
>
>Warren
>
>p.s. I have great concerns about the overall direction of the UH ICS
>department.  I've been meaning to speak to the department head about this
>but I have too many things going on.  Any other UH ICS people here?  One of
>these days lets put together our heads and draft a document of our position
>to tell the department.  I already have several of the professors and staff
>convinced, so they will support us.
>
>
>_______________________________________________
>LUAU mailing list
>LUAU at videl.ics.hawaii.edu
>http://videl.ics.hawaii.edu/mailman/listinfo/luau
>
>
>  
>