[kde-linux] KDE or Ximian Gnome?

[Warren Togami]

On Sun, 2001-11-25 at 22:12, Chris Bailey wrote:

Hi.  I'm formerly a Gnome/Windows2000 dual boot user that converted
completely to KDE a few months ago, and I have quite a bit to say about
this topic.  Sorry I ramble quite a bit here, and I repeat a few things.

> 
> - Links to any fairly current articles comparing the two, or similar
> resources.

I do not recall any good recent articles, but I remember an interview
with Linus Torvalds.  He mentioned that he himself is a KDE user.

> 
> - Screen/font/display quality.  I know this may also depend on the app, but
> quality of font rendering, "clean-ness", whether anti-aliasing is supported,
> etc.  I look at a monitor for hours and hours a day (as I'm sure most of us
> do), I want a really clear and clean display (I'm not referring to how
> cluttered my desktop may be with icons and apps, etc., but the quality of
> what happens to be on the display).

Font rendering in KDE apps is simply GORGEOUS with anti-aliasing
enabled.  Most web pages rendered in the Konqueror web browser look even
better than Internet Explorer in Windows.  No font ugliness problems of
Netscape 4.x here.  Thankfully Mozilla font rendering has improved
recently, but many pages still look ugly in Mozilla.

(Read below about my web browser usage in KDE.)

It is also very nice if you install high quality true type fonts from
Microsoft.  Unfortunately there aren't any free (as in speech) high
quality fonts out there yet.  Every system I install I immediately run
this script webFonts4Linux that downloads and installs the true type
fonts for me.  Simply go to the web site, install the cabextract RPM or
DEB, then run webfonts4linux shell script and it does all the work for
you.

http://gongolo.usr.dsi.unimi.it/~vigna/webFonts4Linux/

Here are two screenshots that I took of my desktop.  They demonstrate
the absolute beauty of the KDE font rendering.

http://www.mplug.org/archive/2001/kde22beta1.png
http://laven.myip.org/~warren/snapshot1.png


> 
> - Desktop configuration.  I tend to go for one small panel at the top, and
> generally don't use a task list  (I setup 4 virtual desktops and tend to run
> specific stuff in each, and just switch between them).  So, accelerator-key
> configuration for switching between workspaces/desktops is important.  Any
> conflicts with apps with this is a problem.  I've found I like the default
> top panel that Ximian uses with menus and then launcher icons for my most
> used stuff.  I also use the pager, clock, perf monitors, etc., and a panel
> applet of my own for some configuration stuff.

KDE has all the same configurability options as Gnome, and they are far
more accessible and workable.  In many of the Ximian Gnome apps like the
console you still have to edit semi-cryptic strings with the font name,
size and color code (?) in order to change your settings.  Though Gnome
has gotten MUCH better recently, especially with the Ximian
improvements.

I was poking around the KDE control panel yesterday and I was thinking
how nice and organized it is.  It has so many options all in one place,
while not being cluttered.  Some options I did not know what they did,
but I could click the Help button and almost every option is documented
in either a sidebar help or full help documentation.

> 
> - Any general commentary about your experience and why you prefer it.  I see
> lots of comments that say "this one is better", but honestly, I rarely see
> meaty reasons, if much of a reason at all.

As I began to say above, I really like the over allorganization and
cohesion of the entire KDE project.  Most things are very well
documented 


> 
> - Good configuration/control panel.

Read above by the desktop notes.

> 
> - I stay up to date, and don't have issues of corporate control/what I
> can/can't install, etc.
> 
> - Easy to update.  I dig Red Carpet, is there an equivalent for KDE?  If
> not, is it as simple as installing updated RPM's for updated components?

KDE is behind Ximian in this regard.  KDE updates are very frequent with
major version improvements and wonderful bugfix releases in the matter
of months.  However, KDE doesn't have an automatic delivery method for
updates like Ximian Red Carpet, although several Linux distributions can
often upgrade automatically using their own package updating tool. 
Debian has apt-get, Mandrake has urpmi, Connectiva as apt-rpm or
something like that.

I *really* like Ximian Red Carpet.  I use it myself to update my
Evolution package.  I use Evolution because of its far superior IMAP
support than KMail.  (Mozilla mail is absolutely horrible, at least for
IMAP.)  My Red Hat 7.2 has Gnome newer packages than Ximian, so I don't
let Red Carpet install any of their other packages that aren't
necessary.

This reminds me, while Red Carpet is a really nice software updating
system, many of Ximian's packages are old.  They don't seem to upgrade
very often.  Most of the packages in the update screen on my machine
says "Initial release to Red Carpet" and they are far older than my Red
Hat Gnome packages...  Gnome seems to release updates very sparsely. 
KDE updates are very frequent, and each update is awesome.

Despite this lack of auto-updating, KDE's frequent releases have
excellent packages available for download for all major Linux
distributions that are fairly easy to install.  My Red Hat 7.2 came with
KDE 2.2.1, but KDE 2.2.2 was released recently.  The official KDE
packager works at Red Hat, so the KDE packages installed very easily. 
Very happy about that.

> 
> - Themes.  I like them :)  But, one thing I don't much like (maybe I'm just
> lazy) is the issue of having two themes under Gnome, one for GTK and one for
> Sawfish.  It's cool to be able to choose different ones, but I don't
> usually, and would probably just like it to be a simple single choice.
>

I haven't played with it too much here, but it seems to be cohesive if
you stick with the default window manager.  I haven't tried changing the
window manager for a few years in KDE though, but I remember some people
using Enlightnment with KDE at some point.


> - Easy to customize menus, and to do it as a regular user, integrating your
> additions into existing categories, etc.

YES!  This is very nice and powerful once you understand it.  On my Red
Hat system there's the global /usr/share/applnk directory that holds the
K menu options for all users.  All users have a ~/.kde/applnk directory
that stores their own menu.  Non-root users can edit their menu using
the nice GUI menu editor.  They can remove stuff from the global menu
and add their own stuff, and those changes remain for that person
alone.  Somewhere else there's checkbox options for different
integration behaviors for conflicting menu options between the global
and user applnks, and I think another for Gnome application menu
placement.

> 
> - File browsers: I use them on Windows (e.g. Windows Explorer or "My
> Computer"), but haven't found that I do on Linux.  This may be because I
> think Nautilus is slow and doesn't work very well.  If Konqueror is very
> fast and works nicely I may be interested.  Also, a real small extra bonus
> is if it views Windows (via Samba) shares.

IMHO, Konqueror file manager is nicer than Nautilus, although they are
very similar.  On my system however the file manager seems very slow
unless I kill the Klipper applet.  (Klipper is a very nice tool that
saves a history of your clipboard, and saves to a file to keep your
history into the next login session.)  Anyone know if this
filemanager/klipper problem is fixable?

While anti-aliasing is available in Nautilus, it feels slightly faster
and smoother overall in Konqueror.

> 
> - Development of panel applets and GUI apps.  This is probably a serious
> religious war, and I'm not interested in the issue of QT being non-GPL
> (regardless of the free version) and all that stuff.  I use these for
> personal things, and as long as I can use one or the other, it's not
> something I factor in right now.  The issue here for me is that I prefer an
> OO design to the toolkit, and want solid language bindings for Python and
> maybe Java, including the more edge parts like panel applets.  Also, not
> only solid/quality bindings, but ones that are kept up to date with
> QT/KDE/GTK/Gnome itself.  And even better, ones that have documentation
> besides saying "read the C/C++ docs".  I've read a bit about Qt and what
> appears to be solid cross platform support is somewhat interesting (I also
> use Windows and MacOS for some things).  Note, I'm not looking for a
> comparison of Bonobo or KParts, or all these things.  Mostly just whether
> the non-C/C++ language support is solid, whether the toolkit is relatively
> decent and can be used easily (in non-C/C++ languages) for panel applets and
> small GUI apps, etc.  I've done a tiny bit of work on Gnome panel applets
> with Python.

I only recently began learning about the software development platform
side of KDE.  I began using KDevelop to do my CS programming
assignments.  Again I am amazed by the cohesiveness and professional
nature of KDevelop.  It is really poised to be an excellent professional
IDE, if it is not already.  So many nicely integrated open source tools,
exellent user interface, help and documentation.

I haven't explored python or java bindings.  Sorry.

> 
> - Browsers.  I will probably use one browser for 95% of my work, and that
> will likely need to be Mozilla for various compatibility/consistancy issues
> in my work.  But, I'm curious about Konqueror, I hear it's fast and good.
> 

I keep all three browsers on my KDE system because several web pages,
plugins and/or java applets work in one browser but not another. 

Konqueror Pros
1. Gorgeous font rendering.  It is also very nice with the font size
controls right on the main browser window, and the control panel.  Web
pages are simply ALWAYS readable in Konqueror, while this is not always
the case in Netscape or Mozilla.
2. Fine grained cookie control.  I love it that I can permanently
disallow cookies on sites, while permanently allow cookies on sites that
I trust.  When I encounter a new cookie I tell it whether I want to
allow/disallow it forever or not.
3. Javascript Pop-up control.  The above cookie protection seems to
somehow block most annoying ad popups.  Otherwise it has a javascript
"Ask" feature that you can enable that will ask you if you want to allow
a javascript pop-up or not.
4. Konqueror works great with most plugins thanks to the Netscape plugin
compatibility.  The latest KDE 2.2.2 now works great with the CrossOver
plugin too, allowing me to use several key Windows plugins.
5. Fine grained control of User Agent on a per site basis.  Necessary
when you need to get around stupid web sites user agent checking.

Konqueror Cons
1. Misrenders some pages, but those pages are usually always readable.
2. Java compatibility is sometimes bad.  A few applets in particular
that are rather broken are Mindterm, AIM Express and ICQLite.
3. Some HTML submit forms or buttons were broken, though some of those
sites seem to be working in the latest KDE 2.2.2 that I upgraded
recently.  I need to re-test this.
4. Only about 90% javascript is supported.  This is supposed to be
better in KDE 3 due out very early 2002.
5. For some strange reason, Konqueror is DAMN SLOW at browsing the AMDMB
vBulletin forums. http://www.amdmb.com/vb/index.php 

Mozilla Pros
1. Renders HTML slightly better than Konqueror.
2. Browses AMDMB forums quickly, unlike Konqueror.
3. Hidden feature to disable javascript pop-ups during page load and
exit.  This is superior to the Konqueror protections that do the same
thing.

Mozilla Cons
1. Sometimes horribly ugly fonts, although for the most part it is
better than Netscape 4.x.  There's anti aliasing support for Mozilla,
but as far as I know it isn't yet mainstream.
2. Broken HTML submit in some web pages.  Several locations in Sun
Microsystem's web pages are impossible to browse with Mozilla due to
this deficiency.  It wasn't fixed as of Mozilla 0.9.5 last I checked.
3. Some broken java applets.  ICQLite for one.

Netscape Pros
1. Stuff that doesn't work in Konqueror or Mozilla always works in
Netscape 4.78 in my experience.  I use it for ICQLite and several web
pages that misbehave in the other two browsers.
2. Some Netscape plugins like Flash are far more stable and compatible
in Netscape 4.78 than the other browsers.

Netscape Cons
1. UGLY UGLY UGLY fonts.

Sorry I haven't used Opera lately.

> - Email apps: I used Evolution back around the 0.8 days when I was doing
> email on Linux.  I'm an Outlook person (say whatever you want), so I like it
> a lot.  If I go back to doing email on Linux, can I use Evolution nicely
> under KDE, or what is the K alternative?

KMail is rather nice in KDE, having most of the eye pleasing benefits of
Konqueror.  However, I don't use it due to its poor IMAP performance
(lacks caching).

I use Evolution.  Evolution suits my needs just fine.  I may switch back
to KMail later if they vastly improve IMAP.  The nice thing about IMAP
here is that I can continue to use Evolution and KMail simultaneously,
because all mail archives are stored in a common location on my home
IMAP server.  I also use web based Squirrel Mail, a PHP application that
is an IMAP client.  Very convenient to reach my mail from work or school
when bandwidth or speed is insufficient for VNC or encrypted X for
Evolution.

> 
> - Anything else people want to add.

Yes, three things.  There are severe problems with the clipboard in KDE.
I could write about it, but you can read about it here.
http://www.freedesktop.org/standards/clipboards.txt

To make a long story short, stick to the X "select & middle mouse click"
for cut & paste and you'll retain full compatibility between KDE and
Gnome applications.  I anxiously look forward to KDE 3 where they fix
this problem once and for all.

The second thing that absolutely love about KDE is artsd.  Artsd is the
sound server of KDE, like esd is to Gnome. Artsd is far superior to esd,
and I heard from my friend (a Gnome zealot) that Gnome developers were
talking about switching to artsd post-Gnome 2.0.  In the mean time you
can understand there are compatibility problems because many programs
like Gnome apps and RealPlayer expect esd, and many other programs
except direct access to the OSS sound device.

SOUND COMPATIBILITY
Default sound compatibility in Linux for applications is currently
HORRIBLE in most Linux distributions.  Nearly all applications expect
artsd, esd or direct OSS device access.  Of course no default system can
supply this, so many people complain about sound being broken in Linux.

There's three things you can do about this.
1) artsdsp esd
Simply type ALT-F2 to bring up the run dialog box in KDE, and type that
command. You'll hear the esd beeps and it will remain running in the
background.  Most Gnome applications and Loki games that use esd work
fine from then on.
2) artsdsp <generic OSS application>
For programs that expect direct OSS sound device access run them with
artsdsp in this fashion, and it will intercept calls to the OSS device
and emulate it through the arts mixing.  Works with most applications,
but it is currently broken with Wine and WineX.  Wine & Arts developers
are supposedly working on fixing this.
3) Install ALSA http://www.alsa-project.org
ALSA is the Advanced Linux Sound Architecture.  It is a replacement
device driver to talk to your sound card, except it will do mixing and
even midi sequencing internally rather than depending on a sound server
like artsd or esd.  It will also do OSS emulation for legacy apps,
meaning artsd, esd and other apps can work unmodified.
This is nice and all, except only one program can talk to the emulated
OSS device at once.  The solution here is to make your sound server talk
directly to ALSA instead of OSS.  Recompile Arts after you have your
ALSA drivers and libraries installed, and it should detect and install
the ALSA option for you.  If you build it from scratch you will have to
use the --with-alsa option with configure.  Building from the SRPM
seemed to autodetect ALSA for me.

What does this all mean?  Do these following steps and all sound
programs will work seemlessly in KDE Linux.

1) Remove OSS. Install ALSA with OSS emulation support.  This can be
quite complicated for novices.  If enough people e-mail me, I'll write a
step-by-step guide of how to do it.
2) Recompile Arts with ALSA support.
3) Run "artsdsp esd" in KDE, and all your esd applications should work.

After you install the ALSA utils, edit all of your application configs
to use "aplay" to play sounds rather than using arts or esd.  This way,
those sounds will bypass the sound servers and mix directly into ALSA.

Otherwise, sound going through esd will mix into arts, and arts will mix
into ALSA.  Stuff will *work*, but with higher latency the higher up the
chain you go.  Fortunately all the esd and arts talk to the ALSA native
interface, keeping the one OSS device free.  One OSS native application
like Wine can use the device just fine at this point.  Stuff like
Quicktime for Windows running in CrossOver work great.

> 
> I apologize for such a long post, but hope this can frame the discussion to
> be most useful.  Thanks in advance.
> 
> ____
> Chris Bailey        mailto:chris at codeintensity.com
> Code Intensity      http://www.codeintensity.com
> 
> ___________________________________________________

Sorry if I sounded harsh toward Gnome here.  I personally applaud the
developers of both the KDE and Gnome projects.

However, IMHO I believe KDE to be currently far superior in most
regards, especially in end-user configurability, desktop organization,
control panel organization and especially KDevelop.  Documentation is
very nicely integrated in readily accessible Help in most applications.

I hope that Gnome can catch up.  Competition spurs innovation.  Both
camps compete, but we all win because ultimately we are all fighting for
the same cause.

I intend on using many Gnome applications and technologies in the future
in my KDE environment.  The mix works fairly well once you understand
the interaction issues that are quickly disappearing.  In addition to my
Evolution usage, I plan on using and perhaps contributing to Ximian's
Mono project sometime in the future.  Very interesting concept there.